The Rev's Dialogue With 'A Conservative!

The Rev's Dialogue With 'A Conservative!

Introduction:
JBTG33 said:
I have spent most of my life working in the inner-city. I see how the system works. The government has created more poor people, by making the poor dependent on the government.

I believe in helping my fellow man, but not the way the government does it. the more socialistic we become, the more people rely on the government. What has the government done to earn my trust? Why should I willingly give the government more of my hard earned tax dollars?

The Rev Responded

One caveat, the government created more poor people by giving preferential treatment to one class of American citizens over the other. That trend lasted for more than two centuries, that is why we have an institutionally created underclass. Remember what Hegel said about man's inhumanity to man: the ownership of property & the pursuit of power through class struggle? Visit ward 7 or 8 in the District, and you will see the working poor struggling in the shadows of the Federal Gov't!

The fact is that there has been and is enough wealth to provide a decent living wage for all Americans who want jobs. The uneven distribution, has nothing to do with dependence, it has everything to do with greed, and bad policy. Limbaugh said it best, 'tax us [the wealthy] and we will still have our chauffeurs, swimming pools et al'. I said, exactly! Many Americans are loosing $ in stock & investment funds। God's comeuppance perhaps, for building bigger barns while others suffer in squalor?

The discussion in its entirety:
JBTG33 said:
I hear you loud and clear....another election with not much to pick from.
revsolomonc
Ambassador Keyes is an erudite black man. He was dispatched to Illinois several years ago in order to defeat the Obama Candidacy. Sadly, afterward, the same conservatives who sent him to Illinois, turned on him, referring to him as a lunatic. Currently, they plan to do the same thing to the man that he defeated, Hillary Clinton, Black leaders and the social justice movement. Ambassador made a mistake by allowing himself to be used! Comeuppance?

JBTG33
Wow, must be neat to have the inside information.

revsolomonc
JBTG33, I've spent years in Washington DC working with Conservatives and so-called liberals. And what qualifies you to be a cynic?

JBTG33
I have spent most of my life working in the inner-city. I see how the system works. The government has created more poor people, by making the poor dependent on the government. I believe in helping my fellow man, but not the way the government does it. the more socialistic we become, the more people rely on the government. What has the government done to earn my trust? Why should I willingly give the government more of my hard earned tax dollars?

revsolomonc
JBTG33 One caveat, the government created more poor people by giving preferential treatment to one class of American citizens over the other. That trend lasted for more than two centuries, that is why we have an institutionally created underlcass. Remember what Hegel said about man's inhumanity to man: the ownership of property & the pursuit of power through class struggle? Visit ward 7 or 8 in the District, and you will see the working poor struggling in the shadows of the Federal Gov't!

revsolomonc
I believe that Ambassador Keyes would make an excellent cabinet member or adviser. I remember when he spoke, over a decade ago, to our prospective barristers at Stanford. He and others on the panel did a yeoman's job. On the other hand he is a polarizing figure, not many Americans would be able to tolerate his shoot from the hip machine gun-style repartee! Those who believe that Senator Obama is elitist, would have a very difficult time if Ambassador Keyes were their opponent!

revsolomonc
JBTG33 There are over 300,000 registered lobbyists. Many lobbying organizations, former Representatives & Senators, have offices located on "K" Street in Washington, literally a stone's throw from the White House, and not too far from the Hill! It is their dependency on the gov't that has resulted in an inequitable distribution. These individuals receive government handouts on an almost daily basis.

JBTG33
Get the government out of the picture and you eliminate the lobbyists. The government is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

revsolomonc
The fact is that there has been and is enough wealth to provide a decent living wage for all Americans who want jobs. The uneven distribution, has nothing to do with dependence, it has everything to do with greed, and bad policy. Limbaugh said it best, 'tax us [the wealthly] and we will still have our chauffeurs, swimming pools et al'. I said, exactly! Many Americans are loosing $ in stock & investment funds. God's comeuppance perhaps, for building bigger barns while others suffer in squalor?

JBTG33
I'm not rich. I just work hard and take care of my family. I am not envious of the rich, I'm glad that there are rich people, they create jobs for the rest of us. The "soak the rich" idea is stupid and not fair, what did the rich do wrong?

revsolomonc
jmtg33, In consideration of comments made by Dr. Michael Eric Dyson, University Professor at Georgetown University. He said something that you might want to consider. He spoke to the issue of episodic benevolence, in contrast to structural imbalances, not an exact quote. All Americans are willing to share, mostly, in the face of an immediate disaster. The real disaster in America has persisted so long, that most Americans accept it as a condition. We need to address the structural barriers.

JBTG33
Americans are by nature, willing to help their neighbor. Its not the government job. It's a personal choice. How on earth did we survive with out income tax? Income tax didn't start until the early 1900's.

revsolomonc
jbtg33, A man wrote me saying, it is not racism that keeps blacks poor, blacks simply need capitalism. I reminded him of Mr. Bush's comments about New Orleans, he attributed the problems of Orleans to a history of white racism. Racism (individuals & institutional) kept a permanent underclass from capital. Consider the hundreds of years of labor by black slaves, who has the capital? Consider the years of disproportional pay due to racism? Who kept the capital? Structural imbalances built..
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JBTG33
Go to school work hard, don't rely on the government to solve your problems. Rely on the government and you will always be poor. With all the programs, why are there so many poor people? The government has taught them to be dependent. Do we teach our own children to be dependent? I don't.

JBTG33
REV, you seem very educated, have you ever worked in the inner city? I have, I know what I'm talking about. It's not as complicated as most want to believe.

revsolomonc
jctg33, Much like the stimulus package that the President is offering today, in order to stimulate the economy, the benefits of the forementioned projects were an invaluable aid to stimulating the American economy, its people and eventually production. Or, consider Japan or China incorporated. Our government is more involved than you are apparently aware with with respect to stimulating and protecting a segment of corporate America. We need to restructure policies & standards for the benefit

revsolomonc
jbtg33, Finally. The WPA, TVA ..., where these welfare programs, handouts, socialism or other? Answer. In a Republic, the government is supposed to represent the people. The historical legacy of disproportionality in America, has never been addressed by the government that is supposed to represent the people. When we get America working properly, the crime rate goes down, monies being spent for security can be used for other purposes, a spirit of collegiality will develop with all groups!

JBTG33
Those were, work for your welfare programs that did not pull us out of the Great Depression. FDR is rolling over in his grave because of what he started.

revsolomonc
continued..., After 911, when the tourist & travel industry were hurting, airline executives begged for relief. Senator McCain after reviewing their proposals inquired, are you nuts? The executives hadn't made one sacrifice, despite asking their employees for concessions. The American taxpayer has voted and supported corporate America for years with tax breaks..., and in return corporate America is moving business overseas, and evading the tax code. Compare their salaries & yours!

revsolomonc
jbtg33 Have you ever toyed around with macro or micro-economics. If not, give it a shot. You are merely repeating something akin to a protestant work ethic, and there is nothing wrong with that. I have been on both sides, I've lived in cars and I've lived on the country club grounds. We have some systemic problems with our economy. And as a result, the working poor, many of whom work as many as 3 jobs are not making any headway. The problem with the American economy centers around greed!

JBTG33
I disagree, there are 3 things you need to do to avoid poverty. 1.finish high school 2. Don't get married until you are 21. 3. Don't have kids until you are married. It is really that simple. Kids growing up without fathers is a way bigger problem then rich people being greedy.

revsolomonc
Your conclusion is oversimplified, the majority of earned-wealth that residing in savings..., was put there by illiterate blue collar workers and semi-illiterates. The majority of young people today aren't getting married at all. However, whatever happens, if you can't earn a living wage, none of what you mentioned matters. Not just poor, the Mid-Class hurts! People are working, 2 and 3 family-members, and just getting by. Look at some sociometric studies, rather than postulate!

revsolomonc
JBTG33The problem with the healthcare industry is the same with affordable housing, food, gasoline, insurance! A common denominator is greed, and neither the government nor the greed barons are willing to do anything about what they both approve. The gov't cannot afford exorbitant medical and pharmaceutical costs, and neither can the people. There is sufficient wealth being generated to pay a living wage. Necessary controls are needed for those who won't control themselves. People work hard!

JBTG33
Americans have got to be the biggest bunch of whiners in the world. We have so much. Our poor people are fat! We are living at a higher standard and longer then ever before. Things could always be better, and if you want things to improve, look at yourself first. What can I do to improve my life? People are being trained to look to the government first.

revsolomonc
You may be right. However, some individuals are justified I suspect. We made a mistake by outsourcing our futures to corporations. The same Americans who turn to corporations now for jobs, while depleting their own entrepreneurial abilities are hurting. Small businesses are the answer. Never again can we give power to corporations who work in tandem with corporations. We are heading in the direction of an American version of a Bolshevik Revolution based upon class struggle!

revsolomonc
jbtg33 I was told that there is nothing wrong with greed. I countered, there is only so much and when a person or group takes a disproportionate share, someone else misses out. The average America might earn 2 to 3M in a lifetime. Other Americans earn that in a day, week or month. Why should one earn $400M w stock options per annum, and a 40 hour week employee earn a slave wage? If you are a believer, Jesus' ministry had both a spiritual & social dimension to it. We can put everyone to work!

JBTG33
Everyone who wants to work, works. I'm a Christian myself, who is generous with my money. I would like to choose who gets my money. I have never made more than 50k a year in my life, I have everything I need. The greedy will have their judgment day, until then, let them provide jobs for the everyday Joe.

revsolomonc
Yes, and I know individuals, working poor, who are working 3 jobs. Now ask yourself, what is wrong that an individual has to make 3jobs to make it, when he or she is not living by conspicuous consumption. The Middle-Class is hurting, given all of the breaks that are given to the elites and the corporate classes who are driving the prices up. Someone has to change that. If people won't take responsibility, a reformed government will have to.

revsolomonc
JBT33, Then you concur with the statement made by Ronald Reagan years ago when he said: Government is not the solution to problems, government is the problem. You are not understanding or accepting the role that government has played, and still plays to impact the poor on one hand, and to benefit the wealth on the other hand. Like the story of the men in the Bible with talents, the government behaves in the same manner, those who have should get more & those who do not have, take that too!

JBTG33
If government can solve our problems, why are there more poor people than ever before?Like Charles Barkley once said "Black people have been voting democrat for 50 years and are still poor" Now we have two big spending/ big government parties trying to out promise each other. There is only one republican left, his name is Ron Paul. We need to listen to him.

revsolomonc
It is because for over 300 years the government did everything that it could to produce social uplift for one class of Americans over the other class. Today we live in a capital intensive society. You know yourself that capital has been kept away from black Americans for practically 300 years. You don't understand the role that government is playing to impact the success of all Americans including you! And as Charles told his grandma, "I'm Rich". If either party will address the imbalances

revsolomonc
JBTG33,Which entity is responsible for the huge tax bite, and how has that impacted middle and upper-middle class hard-working Americans? With respect to the unemployed, it is the norm for a relative percentage of Americans to be unemployed at any given time. Having said that, millions of Americans, some who have recently been displaced in the Mid-West have learned that there are at times when finding work is not as easy as you claim. Why did Japanese execs refer to Amer execs as gangsters?

revsolomonc
jbtg33 The danger of assumption is that all too often conclusions are based on false and skewed assumptions. I suspect that you are blinded in that you apply too much of your personal experience, in interpreting or translating the broader perspectives. Given the recent changes in the Rustbelt for example, downsizing, plant closings et al, there are many Americans who simply cannot find employment. For every manufacturing job 7 to 8 ancillary jobs are created or lost. You are generalizing!

My conclusion: We both agree on at least one point. The government creates problems for the working class. I believe that the government is obligated to do something about the problems that it helped to create, jbtg33 does not!

Peace & Grace
Rev. C. Solomon
http://www.sealofabraham.blogspot.com/

Addenda: I believe that we now have all of the above boiler plates in consecutive order, however, at times both of us created more than one boiler plate in chronological order! Some boiler plates are in groups, however, if you skip down, you should be able to readily pick out the corresponding response!